Re: General Chat

[smash016]

Good to hear from you.

Nothing much going on at the IT forum lately.

Discussions that do take place are not really concerned with IT or other forms of speculation.

It's time for some new content. Even if just a comic or something.

Or a CW episode...

[vlad78]

Hello people,

Happy new year!!
sorry for being away so long, family business.

Hello Cstud! Welcome here.

smash could you keep me up to date to the latest discussion over the iTforum? I couldn't lately.

[smash016]

I'll be honest, I haven't finished the Citadel DLC in that I haven't thrown the party.  I just don't feel like it.  Has anyone found any clues pertaining to anything important in the party banter?  

I know that about a minute and a half into this video, they mention a Joker clone, which I heard was a theory in Mass Effect (and Arkham City, btw!).  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53mMTV0MxN0

Man, I'm getting impatient.  When the hell is episode 5 coming out?  

Off the top of my head, Samara and Zaeed (if you invite them) comment at a painting and this very strongly brings to mind Shepard's breath scene and as such might tell us a thing or two.

Maybe some interesting bits of banter related to biotics, not sure though.

Don't know anything about a Joker clone.

Meanwhile, I wonder where Vlad is at. Chime in if you read this.

Also, I finished my "final" playthrough of the trilogy so I'm not gathering anything and I'm not actively pursuing ME interests right now. I will of course keep replying to anything you guys post here.

[cstud920]

I'll be honest, I haven't finished the Citadel DLC in that I haven't thrown the party. I just don't feel like it. Has anyone found any clues pertaining to anything important in the party banter?

I know that about a minute and a half into this video, they mention a Joker clone, which I heard was a theory in Mass Effect (and Arkham City, btw!).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53mMTV0MxN0

Man, I'm getting impatient. When the hell is episode 5 coming out?

[smash016]

Liara is my LI, too. She's too aloof at times, you know? Like she's reluctant to "love" Shepard because she has a hidden agenda. Not because she's evil or anything, more in a caring, protecting way.

Chambers has always rubbed me the wrong way. Either that was BW's aim or she's just a boring, badly written/voiced character (Allers, anyone?). I once read this theory that Chambers and/or Traynor is disguises of Maya Brooks. Not buying it myself.

But both feel like they could be placed on the Normandy, by Cerberus and the Alliance respectively, to perhaps subtly influence Shepard's course of action.

[cstud920]

With regards to the truth, are any love interests particularly more revealing than the others? I'm guessing the most revealing love interest is Liara (I'm biased since she was my love interest), though I suspect Traynor and Chambers could also reveal a thing or two.

[smash016]

The track you hear playing on that shuttle ride is called "Testing Memories."

Correction: there's a track on the official ME2 soundtrack that's called "Testing Memories" which isn't actually used in the game. Song titles often provide a window into dropped or changed content.

Since I can't think of any existing mission that deals with memory testing, a likely scenario is such a mission was planned at some point. Which is interesting, especially because the song features modulations of what I consider either Shepard's or ME1's motif.

But I'm probably reading into it now.

[smash016]

But the fact some people didn't play it, and ME3's actually taking this into account by saying an Alliance team destroyed the Alpha Relay, means it cannot be mandatory.

I've played the trilogy release on the PS3, so I never played the games without the accompanying DLC.  I also bought every possible DLC I could except for the multiplayer stuff.  I don't know this for a fact, but doesn't Liara tell you about how she became Shadow Broker in ME 3, even if you don't play the LotSB DLC?  

Also, couldn't the "Alliance Team" story above just be a cover story that the Alliance wants to get out for whatever reason?  I don't know what purpose this would solve, but it's possible.  

In general, unless DLC features zombies, I treat it as canonical.  If I were more cynical, I would say that this DLC business is another way EA can make money, by withholding plot-critical parts of the story for DLC.  

As a side note, I bought all the DLC for all the games before I started the trilogy.  Doing the Citadel DLC in the middle of ME 3 was just weird.  I can't remember, but I think right after I finished most of Citadel I want and did Leviathan.  Talk about tonal shift.  Wow.  

The more I think about it, it seems really strange that the Citadel DLC unlocks in the middle of the game the way it does.  I don't remember when it did, I just remember hearing about Anderson's apartment and then suddenly finding myself in the Cidadel DLC.  Is there a reason for the random chronology of the DLC?  It seems that by the time the Citadel DLC came out, most people finished the game.  Then why did Bioware make the DLC accessible halfway through the game?  

Then again, I guess the Citadel DLC can't take place after the trilogy ends, with the Citadel being relocated near Earth and all.  I dunno.  It just seems strange to me.

Fact is the events in DLC always happen, question is whether Shepard was there or not.

About Citadel DLC -- so true. Also if you start it immediately several characters aren't there. You should really postpone it until right before Cerberus HQ. But in terms of atmosphere and style, it's so... deviant. I really feel the trilogy as a whole is better without Citadel DLC, like a needless interruption. Damages the pace of the final game. Too many bad jokes and one-liners. Almost like we shouldn't take the DLC seriously, like that was the hidden message.

[smash016]

So, does anyone have any insider information as to what problems the CW team is experiencing and/or when they could possibly finish this thing?  Seriously, I was hoping for a very illuminating Christmas/New Year's, but that seems out of the question.  Summer, perhaps?  Really, I have no idea.  

Also, how do I decipher all the information scattered in these posts?  There has to be a lot missing, yes?  Are you in the process of compiling old theories and making them accessible to people like me?  I could be blind and have missed something really stupid, though.  

We're not on speaking terms anymore. So no clue. I wonder if something happened, I mean privately in Hellish's life, or whether they just lost interest a bit. It's been dragging on for long now. Or maybe they lost faith in their own ideas. It could be anything, really.

I could give you our previous thread, got it archived, but it's like 200+ pages long... Perhaps you could take a look at Vlad's galleries.

http://indoctrinationtheory.forumotion.co.uk/t547p100-something-a-bit-new#58656

Several of Vlad's galleries are on this page, scroll further down and check them out.

And these are more recent:

http://indoctrinationtheory.forumotion.co.uk/t547p175-something-a-bit-new#59136
http://indoctrinationtheory.forumotion.co.uk/t547p175-something-a-bit-new#60576

It's his ideas, but partly mine, too. It's not everything we've discussed, not by a long shot. But it's a good start. He's working on new galleries, but he's also a very busy guy.

Btw, that entire thread is basically devoted to our ideas as published previously on the forum where this all started (Clevernoob.com, place got shut down, now we're here). It often derails, though. But feel free to browse.

I'm currently looking into ways to properly publish my own theories. But... so busy.

[cstud920]

But the fact some people didn't play it, and ME3's actually taking this into account by saying an Alliance team destroyed the Alpha Relay, means it cannot be mandatory.

I've played the trilogy release on the PS3, so I never played the games without the accompanying DLC.  I also bought every possible DLC I could except for the multiplayer stuff.  I don't know this for a fact, but doesn't Liara tell you about how she became Shadow Broker in ME 3, even if you don't play the LotSB DLC?  

Also, couldn't the "Alliance Team" story above just be a cover story that the Alliance wants to get out for whatever reason?  I don't know what purpose this would solve, but it's possible.  

In general, unless DLC features zombies, I treat it as canonical.  If I were more cynical, I would say that this DLC business is another way EA can make money, by withholding plot-critical parts of the story for DLC.  

As a side note, I bought all the DLC for all the games before I started the trilogy.  Doing the Citadel DLC in the middle of ME 3 was just weird.  I can't remember, but I think right after I finished most of Citadel I want and did Leviathan.  Talk about tonal shift.  Wow.  

The more I think about it, it seems really strange that the Citadel DLC unlocks in the middle of the game the way it does.  I don't remember when it did, I just remember hearing about Anderson's apartment and then suddenly finding myself in the Cidadel DLC.  Is there a reason for the random chronology of the DLC?  It seems that by the time the Citadel DLC came out, most people finished the game.  Then why did Bioware make the DLC accessible halfway through the game?  

Then again, I guess the Citadel DLC can't take place after the trilogy ends, with the Citadel being relocated near Earth and all.  I dunno.  It just seems strange to me.

[cstud920]

So, does anyone have any insider information as to what problems the CW team is experiencing and/or when they could possibly finish this thing? Seriously, I was hoping for a very illuminating Christmas/New Year's, but that seems out of the question. Summer, perhaps? Really, I have no idea.

Also, how do I decipher all the information scattered in these posts? There has to be a lot missing, yes? Are you in the process of compiling old theories and making them accessible to people like me? I could be blind and have missed something really stupid, though.

[smash016]

Something else, could properly be considered "evidence"... Well, not really, but close enough.

There's a tune called "The Catalyst" on the ME3 soundtrack, I guess we all know that arpeggio melody. But the extended version of this track, not on the official soundtrack, adds parts which are composed of eerie choirs. I think part of this is played in-game when you're done conversing with the Catalyst and have to walk up to an endgame choice.

The thing is, when you first enter T-GES Mineral Works, aka Leviathan HQ, with all personnel going catatonic and "you don't belong here", this very same choir is heard. It's the only time besides the ending it plays, afaik.

This is from the official soundtrack channel:



T-GES, @ 10:45

[smash016]

Another thing I noticed.  At the start of ME2, When Miranda and Jacob are first asking Shepard questions to test his memories, Jacob says something puzzling.  He says, "Come on Miranda.  Enough with the quizzes.  The memories are there, and I can vouch for Shepard's combat skills personally."  THE memories are there?  Not HIS memories are there?  Planting memories mayhaps?  

Vlad has a theory Cerberus has indeed been planting memories, as hinted at in the Foundation comics. I also pointed him at this instance. The track you hear playing on that shuttle ride is called "Testing Memories." Speculation, of course, but yeah... very interesting.

Also something that I am ashamed to say I just came up with yesterday.  "Liara" is "Liar" with an "a" at the end.  I feel sorry for parents who named their baby girl Liara.  

Hmm... Most names in ME seem to have a meaningful etymology, so why not this one? Still, I don't feel like Liara has any evil plans. Just like she's holding back.

Also, Legion uses "Infiltrait0rN7" as a nick name. That's "traitor."

[cstud920]

Also something that I am ashamed to say I just came up with yesterday. "Liara" is "Liar" with an "a" at the end. I feel sorry for parents who named their baby girl Liara.

[cstud920]

Another thing I noticed. At the start of ME2, When Miranda and Jacob are first asking Shepard questions to test his memories, Jacob says something puzzling. He says, "Come on Miranda. Enough with the quizzes. The memories are there, and I can vouch for Shepard's combat skills personally." THE memories are there? Not HIS memories are there? Planting memories mayhaps?

[smash016]

While finishing my playthrough I also noticed that when meeting the Catalyst you can still hear that eerie sound from the London beam. Which is good news for traditional IT (as if Shepard's really still planetside).

But we know it can also be heard at the SR2 sleeper pods. Like waaaaay back. And subtly at random other places.

[smash016]

A few things there we've never considered.

The question whether DLC is canon or not, has always been a tricky one. My general thought on this is that most DLC is *crucial* to figuring out what might be going on, but only in an informative way, i.e., Shepard isn't required to experience these events for the plot to work, but we as players need the information to even have a chance of understanding the great scheme of things. Best example, of course, is Leviathan DLC, which is a huge... lore bomb if there ever was one. Makes you rethink a lot of things.

There's been a lot of talk about Arrival DLC, how Object Rho could be crucial to what's happening to Shepard. Choose Wisely themselves used to believe the illusion starts there. But the fact some people didn't play it, and ME3's actually taking this into account by saying an Alliance team destroyed the Alpha Relay, means it cannot be mandatory. Personally I feel this DLC is a huge analogy for what is happening to Shepard at some other point in the story, most likely the Lazarus Project. Have you noticed the similarities?

We also believe there's more to the asari. Yes, something seems very off. Shiala's stare wasn't lost on me either, what was she /really/ doing to Shepard there? I have speculated greatly about the nature of the asari, but didn't arrive on a firm theory. But for one thing, I want to know what "embrace eternity" means, because we're never told, are we? And also the rest of their "the universe is one connected whole" philosophy. Shiala's dialogue on Feros is either a great source of wisdom, or a silly attempt by BioWare to make things sound more interesting than they are (i.e., pretense).

But yeah... the rest of our asari ideas is either somewhere on this forum... or in our previous PM thread which I haven't been able to publish yet. So suit yourself... :/ But the most important idea is that asari were bio-engineered by Leviathan to serve some purpose.

Just yesterday I finished what is supposed to be my final playthrough of the trilogy, at least until ME4 arrives, and I still can't wrap my head around Liara's "gift" in London. What the hell was that? Made no sense at all. That's one strange memory. With Liara I've always felt like she was put in Shepard's team for some shady reason.

I have no clue where Shepard "wakes up." But fact is, this scene is disconnected from the rest of the narrative. Strictly taken, we're not even sure it is Shepard (though the gender matches) and whether it takes place after London, chronologically. I do know the trilogy is filled to the brim with subdued themes of dreaming and nightmares, and themes like immortality, purgatory, underworld. I believe Shepard never died, but was kept at the brink of death for a looooong time... to experience a grand illusion of sorts. Well, it's one of my many hypotheses.

The first scene is them discussing whether Shepard's fit to become the first human Spectre, most likely. And in ME1 Hackett was just some Alliance brass member that gave you your side missions. That's why we never saw him, probably.

There does seem to be some kind of test involved. But more like a moral one, maybe. Why does TIM's star change color depending on Shepard's decision, for instance?

And you're right, all Cs... Never consciously noticed it. But maybe just a running gag. What else could it mean?

Well, feel free to browse this forum. You might find it hard to grasp, simply because you weren't in our previous chat and this forum builds on that. But ask away if you feel like it. I'd be happy to explain things to you. I just thought your conversation with CW was so familiar. You know something's off, right? But you're not even sure this CW bunch is anywhere near correct. So you need to see for yourself. And it's always a matter of, do I believe this is going on, or do I WANT to believe it is? But it's fun either way, so what the hell.

[cstud920]

I have never posted on a message board before, so this will be interesting.  I came to the Mass Effect party late, having played the trilogy through just a couple months ago.  I was primed for the ending, for I know there was something called the indoctrination theory.  I then came across the "Choose Wisely" documentary.  I was initially very pissed off at it because I thought it was finished with only four parts, and they left a lot hanging.  Luckily, I am wrong, and I am very impatiently waiting for part 5.  

What follows below is a message I sent the Choose Wisely Youtube channel.  They have not replied yet.  I know there are contradictions in it already, but I decided to send it anyway because why not?  

There will have to be a rerelease of the original “Mass Effect Trilogy” on current-gen systems. This is not because Shepard needs to be ported into “Mass Effect: Origins” (speculated tentative title). The DLC is critical to the overall narrative of the Mass Effect universe, and players who didn’t buy the DLC on last-gen systems will need to experience them on current-gen systems, because many players sold their old systems. I have no idea why “Lair of the Shadow Broker,” “Omega,” and “Leviathan” were DLC and not part of the main narrative. An alternative to rereleasing the trilogy would be to make downloadable graphic novels of the DLC, I suppose, but this removes much-needed subtlety in the gameplay of these DLC, but this hasn’t stopped players from enjoying the “Genesis” graphic novels, so maybe this is a viable option.

The DLC is critical to understanding the original trilogy. In episode four of “Choose Wisely,” it was suggested that the Asari have an ulterior motive in “helping” Shepard defeat the reapers. Something always seemed off with the Asari. They are very tranquil and level-headed, yet the mind-joining process is always portrayed as a violent, mind-fucking experience with loud, brash sound effects and music. This could be due to the nature of Shepard’s visions, or it could be due to the inherent, hidden violent nature of the Asari. Shiala’s angry stare at Shepard in the first Mass Effect could also be a sign of this. It has been pointed out in the documentary that there are inconsistencies between the main narrative and “Omega,” and between the main narrative and “Lair of the Shadow Broker” (i.e. blue electric paneling in the QEC room and on the Shadow Broker ship). I believe these inconsistencies exist because these DLC are, in fact, reality, and the narrative of the trilogy is a test the Asari are giving an unconscious Shepard to see if he has the leadership skills necessary to be a strong asset for an Asari power play in progress.

Both DLC packages “Lair of the Shadow Broker” and “Omega” feature an Asari gaining power through violence with the help of Shepard. I don’t know if this could be considered a coincidence. These DLC seemed directly connected to the narrative, but upon closer examination, this seems like a ruse. I haven’t played these DLC recently, but if I recall, the collectors and the reapers were not mentioned much in “Lair of the Shadow Broker,” but when they were, they were mentioned by Liara at the end of the DLC when Liara and Shepard were alone. Liara could very well have been deceiving Shepard at this point so that he would still think he were in his dream “test.” Now that I think about it, though, I don’t know how that explains the presence of Shepard’s other team member in “reality.” Never mind, moving on…

I can’t remember, but I think in “Omega” the Reapers are not mentioned at all. This DLC could happen in a reality in which Omega is just one battleground in a galaxy-wide civil war between the Asari and Cerberus/the rest of the galaxy. For all we know, Cerberus could be the “good guys” and the Asari put Cerberus in Shepard’s dream to test if he could be conditioned to fight against them. Then again, if the Cerberus general mentions the reapers before he is captured/killed, then this whole paragraph is moot.

I always thought one scene was awkward in “Mass Effect 3” when saying goodbye to Liara in London, a romanced Liara says, “Thank you, for everything. I love you. Now let’s do what needs to be done.” This is right after Liara apparently shares memories with Shepard. She could have very easily been reading what was in Shepard’s mind as well as giving her “memories” to him. By the way, why isn’t she exhausted after this process like she was in Mass Effect 1? Is it because she’s older? But she isn’t that much older by Asari standards. The trilogy seems to be only a few years long.

Also, what is Shepard waking up from at the very end of Mass Effect 3 with a high EMS during the “destroy” ending? Is this even in London? Is this waking up from the Asari test dream? Do the Asari wake him up only if he has the mental fortitude to gain a high EMS and destroy the reapers? Or am I at least partially wrong, and was the crash at the start of Mass effect 2 was real and the ending is him miraculously waking up from that crash somehow?

For that matter, the very first scene of the entire series was strange. We hear Hackett, Anderson, and Udina talk about Shepard, but we don’t see any of them on the Normandy. This just seems strange to me. It also seems strange that we don’t ever see Admiral Hackett in the entirety of the first game, but none of this has to do with the theory I am trying to explain. I am just rambling now.

The fact that Shepard decides more in this narrative than he probably should could be seen as a sign that the main narrative is actually a way to test Shepard’s mental fortitude. The main narrative could be a well-crafted ruse used by the Asari.

Finally, unrelated to everything, why do most plot-critical items and organizations start with C: Citadel, conduit, cypher, collectors, Cerberus, crucible, catalyst, and I guess Council?

[vlad78]

So did you try to invite that guy?

yep, he said when he'd have time.

[smash016]

So did you try to invite that guy?

[vlad78]

Okay, why is TIM's room so similar to the Catalyst's room? Serenity with warring ships outside. The visual arrangement is very similar. Also, an incline leading up the room on both occasions iirc.

No way BW's level designers would do the exact same thing in two successive endgame maps.

TIM mentions how there's still a "significant hurdle" to controlling the Reapers despite Sanctuary's research efforts, but that the Prothean VI gave him what he needs to "make it a reality." I think it is implied this is the Catalyst.

Again, this question... who is TIM, really?

My guts say the avatar of an evil god. I can't shake the feeling that each time his eyes are glowing in key conversations, Leviathan is watching.

[smash016]

Okay, why is TIM's room so similar to the Catalyst's room? Serenity with warring ships outside. The visual arrangement is very similar. Also, an incline leading up the room on both occasions iirc.

No way BW's level designers would do the exact same thing in two successive endgame maps.

TIM mentions how there's still a "significant hurdle" to controlling the Reapers despite Sanctuary's research efforts, but that the Prothean VI gave him what he needs to "make it a reality." I think it is implied this is the Catalyst.

Again, this question... who is TIM, really?

[vlad78]

NDE is a neat idea and coincides exactly with the underworld theory.

Also I was thinking about Rif's theory about Leviathans not existing at all.

Could Harbinger work toward the same goal as leviathan unbeknowst to the other reapers?

I was trying to have some perspective on the overarching plot.

Harbinger in the arrival DLC is seen as the only reaper mastering direct control like leviathan. We don't know it other reapers are capable of doing it is is not said.

Harbinger is made of the leviathan species.

Harbinger is seen as controling the collectors but at the same team we assume Levi controlled Cerberus and TIM kept trying to send Shep in every collector traps.

The famous Levi quote: There is no war, only the harvest. and levi seems to bear no grudge about the extermination of hs species, saying the aI made what it had been programmed to do, find a solution.

The impossibility of the child being the hypothetical AI on the citadel.

On Rannoch, the fallen reaper said to shep Harbinger 'talked about you' = it's not a consensus. Furthermore sovereign said 'We are each a nation - independent, free of all weakness.'

Finally the synthesis solution which seems beneficial both for levi and the reapers. (saren's vision)
Reapers keep shooting at the crucible even if only control is possible yet Harbinger let Shepard cross the conduit. (and did not make those big craters like sovereign did when landing)

I wonder if Harbinger and levi are not specially connected, Harbinger would share Levi's goal = stop evolution and protect both reapers and levi control over the galaxy by merging both species and ending the cycles once and for all on their own terms.

[smash016]

In the galaxy map, when you dock the Citadel, you get a menu for choosing alternative destinations (eg., Silversun Strip). The regular galaxy map tune turns into a *very* ominous hum with lots of bass, and also a higher tone, the latter of which reminded me of the T-GES facility.

And again, I can't stress enough how the ENTIRE galaxy is flocking to the Citadel. The closer you get to activating the Crucible, the more the game starts telling you this.

[smash016]

Here's a thought -- "cold and dark", Levi's thralldom, right? It's what the game tells us.

Today I learned about NDEs, and apparently dark and cold are common symptoms. Failing consciousness and circulation, probably.

I think it's interesting because the breath scene feels like Shepard coming to after being left for dead.

Also, Underworld Theory...

And btw, beings of light are a symptom, too. The Catalyst maybe?

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