Re: General Chat

[smash016]

Oh yeah I forgot Saren was supposed to symbolize Synthesis... He wanted everyone to be the same and stuff. Yeah I have no idea how that would work out in this new theory too.

And man, all this talk has made me super hyped for Mass Effect... Maybe I'll even begin a fifth playthrough of the trilogy. If I do decide to start one, is there anything you might want me to try to be on the lookout for?

Good thing you ask.

I started a fourth playthrough myself this week, but found out that enough is enough for now. I pretty much did three complete back-to-back trilogy playthroughs, in two years' time. Last one already got a little stale.

So, you should analyze:
1) Saren's dialogue in regards to my VR theory
2) potential afterlife references in ME1, particularly at Peak 15 (few "deathly" things / strange characters there, eg, Dr. Cohen's patients, Han Olar, Benezia)
3) the Conduit jump on Ilos and Vigil's preceding speech
4) asari philosophy (Liara / Benezia / Sha'ira / Shiala)
5) everything related to TIM, particularly in regards to memory themes

I expect a full report shortly.

[NatP]

Oh yeah I forgot Saren was supposed to symbolize Synthesis... He wanted everyone to be the same and stuff. Yeah I have no idea how that would work out in this new theory too.

And man, all this talk has made me super hyped for Mass Effect... Maybe I'll even begin a fifth playthrough of the trilogy. If I do decide to start one, is there anything you might want me to try to be on the lookout for?

[smash016]

Just so you guys know, I haven't dropped off the face of the Earth.  My graduate studies have just kept me really busy, and your theory is very long and deserves a lot of time to read, time that I don't have right now.  Rest assured, I will read it, just a few weeks from now when things slow down a bit.  

Also, is anyone else getting antsy with respect to the release date of Choose Wisely's Episode 5: Part 1?  

Please, don't feel obliged to read anything. It's all bits and pieces the way I'm presenting it now (I might sort that out), and I'm probably incorrect anyway.

Yeah, concerning CW, it's "Hey guys, episode 5 is getting closer! " and "Hellish has private issues " on constant REPEAT.

But that's what we're here for, right? To see for ourselves. Not depend on that bunch.

And by the way, Vlad sent me a PM he isn't dead, so he'll likely drop by soon.

[cstud920]

Just so you guys know, I haven't dropped off the face of the Earth. My graduate studies have just kept me really busy, and your theory is very long and deserves a lot of time to read, time that I don't have right now. Rest assured, I will read it, just a few weeks from now when things slow down a bit.

Also, is anyone else getting antsy with respect to the release date of Choose Wisely's Episode 5: Part 1?

[smash016]

Yeah it's kind of mind-boggling really... But at least all those references to death and life and afterlife and stuff make sense now. And also now I can understand why TIM is so damn important in Mass Effect. Do  you think that getting the blue eyes in the comic is what maybe allowed him to infiltrate the Reaper's VR thingy or at the very least, is what made him aware of its existence?

Yeah, I feel like he's aware of it. Just count how often he tells Shepard something like "you don't know what's really going on" in all kinds of subtle phrasings. And look at how, wholly through QEC, he (tries to) control Shepard. Like he's orchestrating everything without ever being physically present. Just looking at QEC holographs of people. Giving them assignments that further his own agenda. He wants to have a say in deciding the (virtual) future the Reapers will create for us. Using assets like Shepard.

And speaking about those blue eyes, I'm reminded of Saren... He was basically the "TIM" of ME1 (in terms of looking weird ). But at the end of ME1 we find out that his enhancements were apparently there to turn him into "Geth Jumper Saren" which was an... Interesting development for sure. Do you think there were more to those enhancements (and those TIM eyes) than meets the eye? (no pun intended)

Not sure what you mean exactly, but it's certainly possible Saren knew a thing or two, yeah. Dunno, I never analyzed Saren in this context before.

It is, of course, funny how Control and Synthesis are so TIM and Saren, respectively... Could mean they've been there, too.

Also I meant that like, for example in portuguese, "Cérebro" means brain. And then it also means brain or something brain related in other languages as well.

Yeah, "cérebro" is a cognate of the English/Latin "cerebrum", which stands for (the more advanced areas of) the brain. "Cerberus" is a Greek name, I don't believe they have something in common, etymologically.

[NatP]

Yeah it's kind of mind-boggling really... But at least all those references to death and life and afterlife and stuff make sense now. And also now I can understand why TIM is so damn important in Mass Effect. Do you think that getting the blue eyes in the comic is what maybe allowed him to infiltrate the Reaper's VR thingy or at the very least, is what made him aware of its existence?

And speaking about those blue eyes, I'm reminded of Saren... He was basically the "TIM" of ME1 (in terms of looking weird ). But at the end of ME1 we find out that his enhancements were apparently there to turn him into "Geth Jumper Saren" which was an... Interesting development for sure. Do you think there were more to those enhancements (and those TIM eyes) than meets the eye? (no pun intended)


Also I meant that like, for example in portuguese, "Cérebro" means brain. And then it also means brain or something brain related in other languages as well.

[smash016]

Oh yeah you're right, the Asari really were pretty much made by the Protheans (and/or Leviathan ). And they were specifically made to be able to live a long time too. But the question now is, why? Why did they make Asari exactly like they did? I'm just thinking aloud here, but what if they were made as an attempt to stop the Reaper's plan (the whole immortality thing). I'm not too sure really, but I think this was addressed in the games already.

And also this reminds me of how, back in Thessia in ME3, Liara was vehemently denying the cold, harsh truth about the Asari's origins. It's like they really have no idea why they think and live the way they do.

I don't think the asari are necessarily on anyone's side, as far as their wisdom is concerned. They're just the wisest... they know more than the other races. Because they were uplifted? Possibly. But Leviathan still supports and condones its Reaper armada, make no mistake. Asari just have this paranormal side... like Sha'ira. They just sense there's something more.

Oh yeah for sure, Mass Effect 2 is 100% Cerberus's game, there's no doubt about that. In fact, that was a big criticism about it, that it had so much Cerberus, and out of nowhere too. Perhaps another change they did to Mass Effect because they "had to"? (heh)

And oh my god, I just had a weird idea. What if the Collectors are actually... Cerberus, and what they are collecting is Shepard's memories or something? Or well, not just Shepard's memories but something along that line. I mean, Cerberus DOES mean "brain" in some languages after all.

Don't you mean "cerebrum"? Which is Latin for brain iirc.

Collectors are just... collecting souls of the dead. Abducting human colonies, paralyzing them, putting them in stasis (by using bees no less, who in mythology accompanied the deceased to the underworld). Maybe the Collectors detected Shepard's an anomaly, hence their pursuit of Shepard. A living being in the realm of the dead. Not something Hades would tolerate.

You know, you say that they might have a "pull inside the Reaper's VR realm", but if you remember the DLC, it actually seemed like they were doing their best to NOT be a part of Shepard's 'adventure'. "YOU DON'T BELONG HERE" and stuff like that. Well, it's possible they were just putting on a show for Shepard sure, but it really did feel like they desperately wanted nothing to do with Shepard or the Reapers. But then what would that mean in the big picture...?

The Reapers harvested the Leviathans, too, because they're organics who inevitably go extinct. They're hiding because they may be the only ones left. They don't want to risk going "more" extinct. Or something. Leviathan was however still clearly pleased with how the Reapers went about their business, harvesting and everything.

I'm just saying that if Leviathan is trying to accomplish something, it's doing so from behind the scenes. Still trying to be the puppet master. And if humans can use QEC to tap into a Reaper's VR realm, I'm sure there are reasons for Leviathan to do the same using organic QEC.

Hmm yeah I get what you're saying. You DO suddenly start talking to a LOT more holograms in ME3... Hell, for example, if Legion dies in ME2 he gets replaced in Me3 with a Geth VI that has a hologram on its chest to simulate the hole Legion had and even a hologram N7 armor should piece too.

And it makes me wonder if the fact that you meet with a broken hologram at Ilos is actually supposed to mean something... Vigil always felt like he's supposed to be super important in the big picture of Mass Effect, especially considering his amazing theme, the one that's present throughout the trilogy.

Yeah, if Ilos was this big contingency plan that went a lot further than just freezing scientists, maybe the Conduit, of which we discovered has tons of lore issues if carefully analyzed, doesn't really send anyone to the Citadel, but instead into a Reaper's VR realm. Maybe that was part of the Protheans' plan, maybe they also found out about this or that.

I'm sorry, but I think I'm missing the connection here.

http://indoctrinationtheory.forumotion.co.uk/t593p375-choose-wisely-theory#63351

I don't know... seems like this opens up a huge can of worms. You could take it anywhere, really, when the dead can (virtually) dance and memories are a commodity... Is Shepard alive, or dead? What about other characters? Are these memories genuine, or were they tampered with, constructed from the ground up even? Is Shepard an artificial, virtual construct? With a fake past?

[NatP]

It seems like it's an intuitive, almost instinctive utterance for the asari, like they're barely aware of it. The asari fulfill the narrative role of wise women, uplifted by Protheans and very likely Leviathans, bio-engineered perhaps, so maybe that's where they get this insight from. They know... or believe... or feel... there is some kind of immortal realm. This knowledge could also be passed on to them from previous generations. More on this below.

Oh yeah you're right, the Asari really were pretty much made by the Protheans (and/or Leviathan ). And they were specifically made to be able to live a long time too. But the question now is, why? Why did they make Asari exactly like they did? I'm just thinking aloud here, but what if they were made as an attempt to stop the Reaper's plan (the whole immortality thing). I'm not too sure really, but I think this was addressed in the games already.

And also this reminds me of how, back in Thessia in ME3, Liara was vehemently denying the cold, harsh truth about the Asari's origins. It's like they really have no idea why they think and live the way they do.

Not sure about this. It all taking place within Sovereign is not a necessity for the theory to work. The Reapers have targeted humanity as their prime interest for the coming harvest, they are offering us an infinite future... I do think the Human-Reaper is symbolic in that regard. They're not actually building a humanoid Reaper, but humanity is close to being ascended by the Reapers. To accepting their offer. A new Reaper, looking just like a regular Reaper, Sovereign himself perhaps, will start housing all of humanity's uploaded souls. Why do you think the Conduit beam is found at London, Earth? And the Reapers "somehow" moved the Citadel above our planet? We're all getting ascended. That's also why, perhaps, the Conduit jump in ME1, which also leads to the Citadel, aka Sovereign's home, is the point at which Shepard enters the VR realm. But this is conjecture.

Yes, sorry, this is kind of what I was trying to say, actually. Like, this is obvious, but the Human Reaper looked at face-value wise is just... It barely makes any sense and honestly it's super silly. BUT looking at it from a thematic and symbolic perspective it suddenly makes a ton more sense. Because then it feels more like it's trying to symbolize what the Reapers wants us to turn into, I guess. And then you kill it, which obviously hampers the Reaper's plans. And then the final decision is whether or not you blow it up or let Cerberus explore it more... Definitely something there we need to look at.

And then there's the idea that ME2 is a virtual world constructed, or facilitated, by Cerberus. With every mission seeming like a test from TIM for Shepard, to see where she stands on important moral / ideological / eschatological issues.

Oh yeah for sure, Mass Effect 2 is 100% Cerberus's game, there's no doubt about that. In fact, that was a big criticism about it, that it had so much Cerberus, and out of nowhere too. Perhaps another change they did to Mass Effect because they "had to"? (heh)

And oh my god, I just had a weird idea. What if the Collectors are actually... Cerberus, and what they are collecting is Shepard's memories or something? Or well, not just Shepard's memories but something along that line. I mean, Cerberus DOES mean "brain" in some languages after all.

I think they are what they say they are. If they're lying, it's lies of omission. Leviathan must have a pull inside the Reaper's VR realm, though, for anything to make sense. See QEC section below.

You know, you say that they might have a "pull inside the Reaper's VR realm", but if you remember the DLC, it actually seemed like they were doing their best to NOT be a part of Shepard's 'adventure'. "YOU DON'T BELONG HERE" and stuff like that. Well, it's possible they were just putting on a show for Shepard sure, but it really did feel like they desperately wanted nothing to do with Shepard or the Reapers. But then what would that mean in the big picture...?

Because the comm buoy system from ME1 already could do what QEC can. We didn't need another comm system at face value. It doesn't add anything except "oh look, cool super-advanced tech". ME has always been sci-fi, not fantasy, so it needs "reasonable" explanations for things. The mass effect is one such thing. Citing quantum technology is everybody's saving grace these days, if you want to explain something vague using pseudoscientific concepts. And, because ME3 establishes the rachni and Leviathans use an organic equivalent to QEC - this is really important imo. Do you see what possibility this opens up? If TIM, and later in ME3, the Alliance, use QEC to somehow influence the VR realm, talk to Shepard, insert other people, whatever -- and the Leviathans have an organic version of this tech, they have a pull inside Reaper territory, which makes sense because they created them and they are somehow crucial to the narrative.

Did you also read my story about QEC, in the other thread? Quantum entanglement = nonlocality, what Shiala at Feros tells you, her enigmatic speech, before saying "Embrace Eternity", is exactly this, nonlocality. Maybe the asari's mind powers have a QEC component, too, who knows.

So it seems to me the writers needed some kind of quantum phenomenon, in general or maybe specifically nonlocal in nature, to support certain stuff.

Hmm yeah I get what you're saying. You DO suddenly start talking to a LOT more holograms in ME3... Hell, for example, if Legion dies in ME2 he gets replaced in Me3 with a Geth VI that has a hologram on its chest to simulate the hole Legion had and even a hologram N7 armor should piece too.

And it makes me wonder if the fact that you meet with a broken hologram at Ilos is actually supposed to mean something... Vigil always felt like he's supposed to be super important in the big picture of Mass Effect, especially considering his amazing theme, the one that's present throughout the trilogy.

And then there's the Foundation mystery of what the hell TIM wants with Shepard's reconstructed memories... Never made this link before!

I'm sorry, but I think I'm missing the connection here.

[smash016]

My god Smash... I don't want to jump the gun too hard but this theory... It makes so so so much sense in my mind. Like everything we've talked about all this time, it's like it culminates into this theory of yours. I barely even know where to start! I'll just name out some things that stuck out to me:

Finally (it seems) someone took the time to actually read it, and think about it. People at the IT forum generally just skim things, I believe. Although seeing where you come from you're likely in a better position to understand what I mean, to tear down those walls of text...

- So when the Asari say "Embrace eternity!", do you think it's probably meant to symbolize the Reaper's plan for us to achieve immortality or something? That's how I would interpret it at least. But then why would the Asari share the Reaper's philosophy?

It seems like it's an intuitive, almost instinctive utterance for the asari, like they're barely aware of it. The asari fulfill the narrative role of wise women, uplifted by Protheans and very likely Leviathans, bio-engineered perhaps, so maybe that's where they get this insight from. They know... or believe... or feel... there is some kind of immortal realm. This knowledge could also be passed on to them from previous generations. More on this below.

- Wow, this even explains the Human Reaper to me! So if, as you say, Shepard is the only one inside of Sovereign's VR that is subconsciously opposing this "fake" reality or whatever, then maybe ME2 represents Sovereign trying to assimilate Shepard into the VR (since Harbinger is basically screaming throughout the whole game, "EMBRACE YOUR SALVATION" and other stuff like that). Well if this is the case, then maybe the Human Reaper is supposed to encompass this entire ordeal Shepard is going through. So by defeating it, Shepard is essentially defeating his "bad thoughts", which are the ones Sovereign is indoctrinating him with(no pun intended heh). In fact, Shepard did even have to travel to the center of the universe to fight (he had to look inside himself?) and he almost did die doing it (the Charon relay and stuff). It's not a very complex theory at all but it makes sense in my mind at least.

Not sure about this. It all taking place within Sovereign is not a necessity for the theory to work. The Reapers have targeted humanity as their prime interest for the coming harvest, they are offering us an infinite future... I do think the Human-Reaper is symbolic in that regard. They're not actually building a humanoid Reaper, but humanity is close to being ascended by the Reapers. To accepting their offer. A new Reaper, looking just like a regular Reaper, Sovereign himself perhaps, will start housing all of humanity's uploaded souls. Why do you think the Conduit beam is found at London, Earth? And the Reapers "somehow" moved the Citadel above our planet? We're all getting ascended. That's also why, perhaps, the Conduit jump in ME1, which also leads to the Citadel, aka Sovereign's home, is the point at which Shepard enters the VR realm. But this is conjecture.

And then there's the idea that ME2 is a virtual world constructed, or facilitated, by Cerberus. With every mission seeming like a test from TIM for Shepard, to see where she stands on important moral / ideological / eschatological issues.

- I have a question, what are the Leviathan in this theory then? Do you think they even truly exist? Are they are still connected to Cerberus perhaps?

I think they are what they say they are. If they're lying, it's lies of omission. Leviathan must have a pull inside the Reaper's VR realm, though, for anything to make sense. See QEC section below.

Also not ruling out it's a Reaper in disguise, or another piece of symbolism, brought up by Shepard's imagination.

- "Refuse to believe life ends here. Too wasteful. Have more to offer. Mistakes to fix. Cannot end here. Could do so much more." I noticed you have this particular quote in your signature. Is there any reason for that?

Yeah, because I've been pondering Underworld Theory for a long time, and Mordin's quote always was particularly appropriate.

- "- The need for quantum entanglement." Why would you say there's a need for it?

Because the comm buoy system from ME1 already could do what QEC can. We didn't need another comm system at face value. It doesn't add anything except "oh look, cool super-advanced tech". ME has always been sci-fi, not fantasy, so it needs "reasonable" explanations for things. The mass effect is one such thing. Citing quantum technology is everybody's saving grace these days, if you want to explain something vague using pseudoscientific concepts. And, because ME3 establishes the rachni and Leviathans use an organic equivalent to QEC - this is really important imo. Do you see what possibility this opens up? If TIM, and later in ME3, the Alliance, use QEC to somehow influence the VR realm, talk to Shepard, insert other people, whatever -- and the Leviathans have an organic version of this tech, they have a pull inside Reaper territory, which makes sense because they created them and they are somehow crucial to the narrative.

Did you also read my story about QEC, in the other thread? Quantum entanglement = nonlocality, what Shiala at Feros tells you, her enigmatic speech, before saying "Embrace Eternity", is exactly this, nonlocality. Maybe the asari's mind powers have a QEC component, too, who knows.

So it seems to me the writers needed some kind of quantum phenomenon, in general or maybe specifically nonlocal in nature, to support certain stuff.

- You said you're not too sure on Kasumi but I personally think she fits in perfectly in this! Her loyalty mission is basically that she wants to be reunited with her dead boyfriend and the only thing that will help her do that is, well... VR!  And then, Shepard can actually choose to help her out and let her know that it's not worth dwelling in that "fake world" and that she should just move on and accept his death in the real world. In fact, if you don't tell her to move on, in some of the ME3 endings you can actually see her get reunited with the "VR Kenji" again. And well, I'd say this fits into your theory pretty well. Or maybe I'm just being biased since she's my favorite character.

Well, I said she at least visits the dead virtually, which is obviously relevant, but couldn't think of a more specific interpretation at the time, but what you say is spot-on. So relevant, thematically.

Ooh... Remember, the end of the Evolution comic? TIM apparently looking at blue, holographic slides of Shepard's future adventures? This all seems so sensible now. Just like when Kasumi is looking at Keiji's blue, virtual memories. And then there's the Foundation mystery of what the hell TIM wants with Shepard's reconstructed memories... Never made this link before!

[NatP]

My god Smash... I don't want to jump the gun too hard but this theory... It makes so so so much sense in my mind. Like everything we've talked about all this time, it's like it culminates into this theory of yours. I barely even know where to start! I'll just name out some things that stuck out to me:

- So when the Asari say "Embrace eternity!", do you think it's probably meant to symbolize the Reaper's plan for us to achieve immortality or something? That's how I would interpret it at least. But then why would the Asari share the Reaper's philosophy?

- Wow, this even explains the Human Reaper to me! So if, as you say, Shepard is the only one inside of Sovereign's VR that is subconsciously opposing this "fake" reality or whatever, then maybe ME2 represents Sovereign trying to assimilate Shepard into the VR (since Harbinger is basically screaming throughout the whole game, "EMBRACE YOUR SALVATION" and other stuff like that). Well if this is the case, then maybe the Human Reaper is supposed to encompass this entire ordeal Shepard is going through. So by defeating it, Shepard is essentially defeating his "bad thoughts", which are the ones Sovereign is indoctrinating him with(no pun intended heh). In fact, Shepard did even have to travel to the center of the universe to fight (he had to look inside himself?) and he almost did die doing it (the Charon relay and stuff). It's not a very complex theory at all but it makes sense in my mind at least.

- I have a question, what are the Leviathan in this theory then? Do you think they even truly exist? Are they are still connected to Cerberus perhaps?

- "Refuse to believe life ends here. Too wasteful. Have more to offer. Mistakes to fix. Cannot end here. Could do so much more." I noticed you have this particular quote in your signature. Is there any reason for that?

- "- The need for quantum entanglement." Why would you say there's a need for it?

- You said you're not too sure on Kasumi but I personally think she fits in perfectly in this! Her loyalty mission is basically that she wants to be reunited with her dead boyfriend and the only thing that will help her do that is, well... VR! And then, Shepard can actually choose to help her out and let her know that it's not worth dwelling in that "fake world" and that she should just move on and accept his death in the real world. In fact, if you don't tell her to move on, in some of the ME3 endings you can actually see her get reunited with the "VR Kenji" again. And well, I'd say this fits into your theory pretty well. Or maybe I'm just being biased since she's my favorite character.

[smash016]

Also to you guys, Nat and CStud: you might want to check my recent postings on the IT forum if you're interested in something of a convergent culmination of many past hypotheses.

It starts here: http://indoctrinationtheory.forumotion.co.uk/t593p250-choose-wisely-theory#62764 - and then all the way down to the end of the topic. I'll try my best summarizing it here.

The most important part is combining ME1's Sovereign speech, ME2's cryptic Legion dialogue, and the ME3 ending monologues. The phrase used by the game, "a future", is key here.

My idea is that, basically, the Reapers despise us because of our mortality, and have something to offer that's beyond our imagination and understanding -- these two themes emerge clearly from Sovereign's speech (and less clearly from later Reaper encounters).

Then in ME2, Legion says the orthodox geth build their own future through a Dyson sphere megastructure to which they will all upload, and in which they can start "imagining new futures", as an ultimate solution to the problem of self-preservation (mortality). The heretic geth were offered "a future" by the Reapers and accepted it. Humanity's offered the same.

Then in ME3, choosing any of the three original endings results in an endgame speech that invariably goes on and on about "imagining new futures" or variations of that theme / phrase.

And choosing Refuse in the EC, we see Shepard speak of dying and death instead. Self-determination. Like the orthodox geth.

Hence, the Reapers are megastructures that preserve "each a nation" as uploaded minds. Make us immortal, preserve us, present the technological singularity, and carry out their mandate of saving all organic life. How? Virtual reality! Many -- too many -- precedents in the ME universe for it otherwise.

Now, if you want to know why this makes any sense, there's no choice but to read everything so you'll have the same context as I...

[smash016]

Weird tweets from Gamble, also in response to others below.

What makes you say "ominous" though?

[NatP]

Ahh sorry guys, turns out this is actually a message for the MEHEM mod and not the actual game itself... I got too excited and posted it without double-checking. My bad.

HOWEVER, there was indeed a patch for Mass Effect 3 on the 1st of Abril and even Mike Gamble himself confirmed it. https://twitter.com/GambleMike/status/583409245678399489 And with a weirdly ominous tweet I might add...

[smash016]

OK GUYS, this MIGHT be huge. So there was this update for ME3 yesterday right? And well, according to someone online, this message that wasn't there before now appears before the ending: https://i.imgur.com/fzdJ6Lf.png (Please take this with a grain of salt of course)

The question now is... What does this mean?!

First things first, we need to get this confirmed. Who is "someone online"?

Also, I tried downloading this patch but it wasn't in BW's download section.

Furthermore, why sow new hints in a game two years old?

[NatP]

OK GUYS, this MIGHT be huge. So there was this update for ME3 yesterday right? And well, according to someone online, this message that wasn't there before now appears before the ending: https://i.imgur.com/fzdJ6Lf.png (Please take this with a grain of salt of course)

The question now is... What does this mean?!

[smash016]

Speaking of Asari, I just noticed something if Liara is Shepard's love interest.  After having sex, Liara always thanks Shepard "for everything."  Is there some other thing going on during this "joining," perhaps an exchange of information?  

Certainly feels that way. Asari have a few extraordinary traits that aren't required by the face-value narrative anyway.

[cstud920]

Speaking of Asari, I just noticed something if Liara is Shepard's love interest. After having sex, Liara always thanks Shepard "for everything." Is there some other thing going on during this "joining," perhaps an exchange of information?

[smash016]

Yeah well, I talked about it at least... I think in the context of ME2 characters being generally comic-y, alternatively courtesy of Walters who's a comic writer, but perhaps a sign of unrealness. Iirc the Codex hints at Justicars being mere legends and Samara herself in between missions, too.

Combined of course with that other idea, Samara now is an immaculate saint from asari folklore, cuz she's in it for redemption. Cathartic compensation, you know? For her past sins.

Yes saw that tweet. Could mean a ton of things but it doesn't sound bad, at any rate.

[NatP]

Did we really talk about Justicars being action heros? I mean, I remember thinking that they were like direct agents of the Leviathan and stuff like that but never about them being fictional characters... Then again, with the amount of things we talked about, it's possible I simply forgot about it.

Also, have you guys seen this tweet? https://twitter.com/GambleMike/status/572495543001321473 Yeah...

[smash016]

This is the Citadel DLC romance scene with Samara, which I never got on my playthroughs. Listen closely to the dialogue and keep in mind what we speculated about before—the justicars being mere characters from adventure stories, and Samara being a "reincarnated" Morinth on a mission to repent in the afterlife for her Ardat-Yakshi sins--speculated about before ever watching this scene.

[smash016]

I'm starting to get worried about Vlad... Been over a month since he last came here.

Or maybe he's reading along in silent mode.

[NatP]

Wow amazing find! Can't believe Vigil had that much story to it. And yeah, it really does Vigil more interesting (which it already was).

[smash016]

Something else -- we've always sort of assumed Liara's piano tune is based on the Vigil theme, right? But somebody told me it's based on Seikilos Epitaph, the oldest musical composition known to mankind. I checked it out, and it certainly is.

Question is, is the Vigil theme ALSO based on Seikilos Epitaph, then? Because this could have some... speculative implications.







I can't tell for sure myself. I did always wonder why people were so sure Liara plays the Vigil tune. It's not obvious to my ears. It is the same key, but that's not impressive by itself.

(edit) Scratch that -- when listening further into Vigil, it does seem like it's based on the oldest composition known to man... Intriguing...

[smash016]

Apparently, Morinth getting away on a ship called the Demeter, is a homage to Bram Stoker's Dracula. It has nothing to do with Demeter being the goddess of the harvest and the cycle of life and death.

Reminder of how you I can't read into everything.

[smash016]

Fucking hell! That was awesome.

A few "discoveries" of our own in there... heh heh.

The fact this video is very recent, has Mark Meer, and ends on an obvious "this was just the tip of the iceberg" note, is good news. The only thing missing is this video being on BW's own channel.

Still, Mark Meer. Talking about stuff he shouldn't know as a voice actor per se.

He also notes the traditional underworld meanings of Cerberus, Charon, and Hades, even when that's not relevant at face value for ME's universe. But yeah... Charon is a real-life moon of Pluto. So... undecided matter.

Nazara not derived from Nazareth... Hmm... was hard to make sense of anyway.

Best part: "You thought you knew Mass Effect, but hopefully you've learned just a thing or two more. Do you know of any other historical references we didn't cover here?"

Yeah, we do, actually, but the thread got taken off the net...

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